Why Workplace Inclusion Needs Better Communication

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0:00 In MedTech, the difference between a good quarter and a great one isn't always the product. It's the friction standing in the way. Broken sales cycles, misaligned teams, deals that stall at the finish line. Every leader feels it, and the best ones know how to remove it. Welcome to Zero Friction, the podcast where we go inside the minds of MedTech's top commercial leaders to uncover the real barriers they face, the decisions they make, and the systems they build to keep the revenue moving. I'm your host, Terry Coutsolioutsos. Let's remove some friction. Welcome to Zero Friction. I'm Terry Coutsolioutsos, founder of RevRx AI. Today's episode is about a friction point most of us never think about, and one that science says is quietly impacting our personal and professional lives at scale, human touch. My guest is Keely Shoop, CEO of Cuddlist, and the the platform that is setting the highest standard for consent-based client-led touch. Cuddlist has been featured in The New York Times, Glamour, and Cosmo, and Keely has been building a practice in this space since

2015. This conversation is about what happens when we remove the friction between people and the connection they actually need. So, Keely, welcome to Zero Friction, and why don't you kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and Cuddlist? Certainly. Thank you so much for having me on, Terry. I'm really excited to chat with you. So, I have been in private practice doing cuddle therapy work or professional cuddling for 10 years, for over 10 years now. And a couple years ago, after following the company from its inception, purchased Cuddlist, and I'll run Cuddlist, which trains and certifies folks in this modality. It also provides a membership service for them, so that their their entre- and it they have unique needs in that realm, and so we give them a lot of support, we give them a lot of resources, so that they can keep their practice sustainable.

Well, that's awesome. So, um so, tell me about what Cuddlist is actually doing in the marketplace today. So, your customers are they're companies, they're people. So, tell me a little bit how you engage your audience. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Our customers are the practitioners themselves, right? But, we're serving a lot of different populations because we are connecting our customers, the practitioners, with the broader community. And we're connecting companies with people who can support them. And so, Cuddlist's responsibility, what we feel as our responsibility, is a lot of public education. It's education first and foremost for our practitioners, very quality education around connection, around the physiology of touch, and around that piece that is unseen, and that piece that is unseen is around communication. And that communication piece often involves boundaries and consent, which can be buzzwords, it can also be scary words, but we make them actually really lovely.

2:44 Um and so, that's a lot of what we're doing in the world. Well, good. Well, how do you make those buzzwords a little more elegant? How do you make people feel more comfortable just around the aspect of consensual touch, right? How does How does that sort of transpire? We demystify a lot of it. We take a lot of the scary out of it. One of the things that we often love to say is that hearing a no is an invitation for better connection, always. It's never a rejection. And so, we how we utilize that in space is by celebrating what the questions are and what people's responses are. A very simple one, and it can I want to invite anyone to try this in their worlds, but a very simple thing that we can teach is, "When you greet someone, would you like a hug, a handshake, or a smile?" And I often say that with, you know, a little cheeky grin and see what people say. And often

Times, people see that as a very very engaging uh entry point into connection. Like, "Oh, well, like I have choices now. I wonder what I'll choose, right?" And we make it more approachable. That way, everyone has what is actually feeling comfortable for them. We've got all I I work with a lot of neuro-divergent folks and sometimes just the smile might be where they're comfortable, especially if they're in a new space, if they're meeting brand new people. A handshake might be social convention and might feel really comfortable for other people, whereas a hug might feel a little too formal. And some people, I know you know them in your personal world, I'm sure, they're the huggers, right?

Yes. They're the ones who are going to just absolutely give a big bear hug to anyone. We want to embrace those folks, too. So, it's little pieces like that that make that not scary, but make it a point of connection. Well, that's awesome because it also provides some empowerment on the other side of it, too. And I think that you brought it up, the choice is a wonderful thing. And so, that leads me to another question. So, tell me a little bit about the science behind touch and what does that mean and, you know, how does that impact our lives, not only those that are getting touched, but those are that are providing the touch, as well?

What's happening in the body? So, what's happening in the body with that is it's decreasing cortisol. If people are familiar with cortisol, that's the stress hormone, right? Right. Having oxytocin in your system, oxytocin is produced when we touch another person, handhold, hug. That decreases cortisol, it boosts our immune system, it lowers our blood pressure. It's really wonderful for a lot of our physiological well-being and it helps us regulate our nervous system. And it sounds like that the oxytocin is a wonderful drug, right? Yeah. Absolutely. It's one of my favorites.

5:20 People leaving um a space after a really, really quality session or quality time and will need to have a few minutes, right? Like, here, have a glass of water because they might feel a little floaty and their and technically their reaction times might be a little bit slower because of the different parts of the brain that are activated. So, it does feel a little, you know, you feel a little buzzed off of a really great uh really great hug session. So, yeah, absolutely. Here's just a tad bit and let's go into an area that might be under explored.

Really is taking the workplace angle. Mhm. I have a lot of followers on the LinkedIn network that are professionals. They are human resource professionals. They're all involved in some sort of um ERG program or diversity inclusion program. Because when you brought up the neurodivergent population, you know, I just wanted to say like when you look at neurodivergent workforce conversation, you know, it has a lot of accommodation checklists and things like that. What are you describing? What can you describe to me about neurodivergent workforce and what how your therapy can actually lead to a more you know, better professional work style life environment, better workplace, not only for the neurodivergent employee, but also for the rest of the workforce population as well. Yeah, we've talked a little bit about the physiology of how the physiological effects of how positive touch can be for the body, but the core of what we teach and some of the communication tools and kind of the philosophy behind this modality is way more than that. It actually has way more to do with

Connection and interaction. And so, one of the most fundamental philosophies of the work that I do is that every person does not need to be fixed. And that's going to be really relevant when we talk about neurodivergent folks because a lot of neurodivergent folks will walk through the world and be very consistently trying to mask or fix themselves to fit the the existing molds. And that can be a lot of effort, that can be exhausting, that can be overwhelming, that can lead to burnout. And what we do instead, especially in even just in the micro experience of a cuddle session, right? We start from the premise, what if nothing is wrong with you? What if how you naturally interact with the world, we just presume that's correct. So now what do we need to do to change your environment to fit that? And that as a premise and as a as a foundational concept is wildly empowering. And it is wildly beneficial for people to have more sustainability

8:02 In the workforce and in their lives and their relationships, more comfort, more joy, more happy We talk about you know, workplace satisfaction. We talk about life fulfillment, life satisfaction. If you're starting from the premise that I can adjust my world and my surroundings to myself and that's not harming anyone, it's not inconveniencing anyone, we're just fine anyone, we're just finding the we're finding the Venn diagram overlap, right? Just to put it in those those terms. We're finding where things match. Then that can be a very very man, it can open up a lot of doors.

So if you're the VP of HR or you're the chief human resource officer, how can your how would you engage them and consult with them in terms of you know, making the entire workforce a little more inclusive. I think inclusive is a wonderful word, right? It really is a great action verb. And so how do we build these inclusivities into the workforce environment? How can people like you and other Cuddlist therapists like help companies, you know, be more productive with their neurodivergent workforce, be more productive with other ERGs that might have other impacts and positive effects from a cuddle type therapy. Tell me a little bit about how you might engage and consult them with those things. And like what are the things that you're looking for too, by the way? Let's just start here. What would be the things that you would be diagnosing to understand for them? What would be their friction points in their HR world that, you know, you might help them diagnose first and then provide

Solutions for second? Yeah, how are you treating the people like people first, right? If we are operating under the premise that people who are really invested in, happy with, and excited about where they work, the company that they work for, the work that they are doing, are going to be wildly more efficient for your company. They're going to cost you be so cost-effective because the output is incredible. Their their satisfaction is like if we start from that premise, right? Then the cost of adjusting their experience really is is pennies compared to what is going to be the result. And so, it's partially looking at the practical nuts and bolts solution. Okay, how's this environment for your neurodivergent climate clients? In terms of sensory input, right? We can even just look at the sensory input of a space. We can talk about their communication styles. So, how is the how are the communication styles with other people? How often times direct communication is going to be so much

More efficient for neurodivergent folks. It's going to maybe for some, not a monolith, right? But for some it's going to feel more natural. So, how do we embrace that without finding it cold, without finding it harsh, without finding it unfriendly in the workplace, you know? So, there's all kinds of practical things, but fundamentally the thing that we can identify that that you don't have to identify all the individual streams and individual things, but it's that core foundational philosophy of how is your company living that value? And how is it permeating every everything that you do?

10:56 Right. And then what do you do to help them sort of build around that once you've discovered those things? You come back to the question all the time. You get curious about the same people and what's the connection? What is the place that we can meet as as not as a a company and pardon the phrase, not as a company and a cog, right? But as two people. How do you always come back to that connection point of what's your authentic experience here? I actually do want to know without ego, without my own ego coming into it. And then what can I meet you in? There there's capacity is a thing, that's totally fine, but where can we meet? And there's a whole lot more that can happen in that space when we're treating every individual with their own uniqueness and finding the connection points.

So what do you think the implications are if after going through discovery and taking inventory of your employee population and discovering that there are some opportunities, what what are the implications of just ignoring them? Like like from a workforce productivity perspective, from a workforce enjoyment perspective, what have you seen like of just ignoring the situation? Easiest one to say off the top of my head is high turnover. We all know that it takes exponential more revenue to train someone brand new from the ground up. Like turnover is huge. That's going for my company, my personal company, we're small. We got a great team. It's a small team, but the people who are here currently, we've had for years. We almost have non-existent turnover until and unless someone grows into um a cool new life phase. That's the reason that they leave. We've had people say I've got this incredible life-changing event coming up and I might have this life-changing opportunity and we're so excited or people will go off to build families in

Different ways and whatnot. And so we're we're so thrilled and the core team it doesn't change. And so bringing people into that has been delightful and they bring a sense of I'll give an example. When we are working one of the funny things that comes up when we bring a new person in is they're like, well, I'm really worried about stepping on any with someone's toes. I don't want to step on someone's toes. And we have such a culture in our workplace of that's not possible. That's really not possible. If you have something to contribute, I'm going to value that contribution. There might be reasons why we can't implement that thing because if you're not in that department or if you're not in that area, there could be some extra things that you're not familiar with, right? If it's new to you, but there's no such thing as stepping on toes. Contribution is contribution, and we're grateful for it, and we're going to value it. And so, there's a different way of valuing each

13:34 Individual person and the and the things that come out of that is then now you've got a different innovation for you've got now new life injected in different ideas. Well, cuz someone in a whole other team was like, "Well, hey, I was listening to you guys talk about that, and have you tried this?" And the people who are real focused in on the problem have the tunnel vision now have another perspective. Right? When you're everyone's valued for all of their contribution, then it's a very different experience. Got you. Well, that's I totally align with that. So, let's position ourselves a little bit. That's a great little framework from a corporate perspective.

So, tell me about Cuddlist. So, you must have a a vision and a North Star. You've talked about reshaping how global health care supports this community. That's a great ambition. What does the path look like for Cuddlist as it begins to sort of, you know, continue to mature and develop and impact more people? The hope is that it can come right alongside modalities that are already really well known, well known and popular to to hear about. Like, when I partner with talk therapists with my clients, right, we work in something called the triadic model, and it's more holistic care. And when people get more holistic care, and they get the big picture, and they get all this they get a team working for them. And they feel really valued. They show up in the world differently. And that's what I want for this company. I want the philosophies of it, the connection of it to spread so that the world has more of it. I think

The world needs more of it. The world needs more authentic connection. It needs more connection that feels really good. Surgeon General as you know, says we're in a loneliness epidemic. This is an antidote to that. And and my hope is that it continues to grow well beyond me. Right. Well, how do you How does it grow beyond you? Like, what are What are the What do you Like, do you have plans for growth or are you just sort of, you know, is it word of mouth? Is it sort of, you know, like a bootstrap opportunity? My hope is that it does grow well beyond me because I'm one person and our plan for growth is to have even more capacity to train more of our practitioners to be doing this work really well in the world. And then they grow to be incredible practitioners and run their own businesses. We have some of our practitioners running additional schools. Here's a thing that I think is going to turn some heads, especially

Since I'm not as plugged in to the centralized corporate world as maybe a lot of your listeners, but it's maybe a good outside perspective to offer. I don't have competition in my fellow practitioners. I have colleagues. I have the I have the people who are also supporting this work. And so some of my colleagues and friends and practitioners who have gone through my training are now creating trainings of their own. And I am doing my best to cross-promote their trainings. A lot of people would have the opinion or or potentially have the view that that is a competitor coming up. And I don't want to promote a competitor, but I don't feel that way. I don't Right.

16:37 Find that it always brings back tenfold when I am in community with these people. They're going to continue to bring people back to the training that they originally got and valued. And if they're doing something that's incredible, I want other people to have more resources for them. That's great. And you have a you know, your Cuddlist is a network and a community in itself of sort of the mainstay of the premise for it. And it's great that they have a resource for training, a resource for networking, and a resource for collaborating.

We are international. So we've got folks in Australia, in the UK, and Canada. We've got folks in lots of different places. It is predominantly centralized in the United States, and we've got quite a few people on both coasts. We've got a a sprinkling of people throughout central North America, and so we're growing all the time, which is kind of lovely. Well, I think that, you know, the important fact is is that you're you're touching people, you're helping people feel more comfortable around a wide array of things, and we just talked about the neurodivergent component only.

What are other types of situations that you can help provide a positive impact for as well? Yeah. It really spans quite a lot. Um I know predominantly in my practice, my private practice, not necessarily the Cuddlist model, but in my own private practice, my populations that I serve are neurodivergent folks or the queer community and people in transition or Mhm. if we've had a loved one pass, so grief and loss. Wow, yes. You can imagine, right? Like that reaction was really appropriate. You can imagine how important this work, that kind of care and nurturance can be for dealing with grief and loss. I also navigate and support survivors of assault. There's lots of really deep work, and then I have colleagues who are serving different populations like veterans and elder care. I've got some colleagues who specialize in like relationship transitions, so divorce or breakups. Some people are really in that helping people with relational skills.

So, they they don't want to do rebounds. They don't want to go to bar culture. They're really not interested in that. They want actual fulfilling connection, and they're trying to find a way to heal from the relationship transition of that and get into a one that will hopefully last a little bit more fulfilling. Well, that's pretty cool, and that really kind of opens the conversation up quite a bit, actually. You know, I hadn't even thought about your transitioning from losing a loved one, and that probably has a huge impact on people. Oh, yeah. Personally, professionally, anxiety, depression, all those things that go along with, you know, an unproductive lifestyle. So, wow, very, very cool.

19:23 But, so before we close, I just want to cover a couple things with the audience that they can take away with. The friction in mental health is just not access to therapy, but it's picking the right therapy to fix the right modality problems, right? So, and I think as you said, Cuddlist really has a unique offering where, you know, it's a it's a it's a pretty interesting new space, and it definitely is an alternative to other things. And it can be very powerful. And we talked about this the power of millions of people that are impacted by neurodivergency, you know, whether it's a transition in lifestyle, whether it's a transition from losing a loved one, um you know, people processing loss. That missing link is very somatic. It's physical, and there is science that backs up this type of therapy. Secondly, you know, consent and customization is not a soft concept.

And you and I talked about like that's an awkward, you know, sort of discussion to have, especially in a corporate environment. Um you know, you can understand where, you know, that's sort of an awkward phase with the the the word of touch, right? But you found a way to break through that and make everybody feel comfortable with it, which is a wonderful thing. And what Cuddlist has built around this client-led boundaries in your practice is the reason why, you know, other professionals can trust it, and that's why your clients come back and return.

This is a business principle as much as it is a therapeutic one. And thirdly and lastly, the workplace opportunity is real. It is very, very real, and for those of you that are HR professionals or or active in their diversity inclusion groups in the corporate world, it's a great opportunity that you probably have untapped. And so, if you're a people leader, benefits manager, an HR leader, or an ERG spot, and you can still, you know, use these types of touch deprivations as a personal problem, rather than an organizational one. And so, if you want to leave the bad retention behind, improve productivity and efficiency, and the well-being of your people, this is a great angle to take. And so, Keely, this has been a generally eye-opening conversation. I'm glad that you built Cuddlist. It's a great opportunity for to open eyes across the professional and corporate world. And it's exactly a nice thing to move somebody from the margins of the mainstream into the fringes. And

So, that work really matters, and thank you. So, anyone listening, or if you're a therapist looking to add a complimentary modality to your offering, I'm a benefits leader, an ERG leader, Keely, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Yeah, anyone is welcome to email me at keeleyshoop@gmail.com, but I've also got my website, which is my name as well. And then, if they're looking for someone maybe a little bit more local. Now, I'm in Chicago and Los Angeles and San Diego, but I also travel anywhere. But, if they're wanting to look for someone local, they can go to cuddlist.com. You can find me there. You can find lots of people who are near you to to be different kinds of support. Be support that has a lot of robust education around how do you get access to this really important human quality that is that is physical touch at the degree that is comfortable for authentically comfortable for each person. It's not about making everyone more touchy. It's

22:33 About finding your own authentic access point to whatever level is right for you. Keely, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time today. It is a great topic, and I look forward to seeing our our followers and our listeners engage you. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that we got to chat today. That's a wrap on Zero Friction, the show built around one simple idea. Remove the barriers and the revenue will follow. If today's conversation was valuable, please subscribe and share it with somebody who needs to hear it. That's how we will grow this community. I'm Terry Coutsolioutsos, Revenue Architect powered by AI. Come find me at my website, myrevRX.com, and let's talk about what friction is costing you and your organization. Until next time, keep removing the barriers and keep the revenue flowing.